Thursday, December 30, 2021

A computer scientist considers democracy

Garbage In. Garbage Out.

If you input bad data into the computer you get bad results, even if the computer program calculates it perfectly.


Trigoboff, then
Today's blog post is an edited dialog with  Michael Trigoboff, a computer science professor.  He used to look hippy-wild; now he looks straight. He used to be easily defined as a liberal; now he works in the middle of the hothouse of cutting edge woke social justice equity activism--Portland Community College--and he is resisting its illiberalism and demand for conformity.

He commented on yesterday's post. I had observed that Rand Paul claimed the 2020 election in Wisconsin was stolen because it included legally cast and counted votes from the "wrong sort of people"--urban Blacks. I considered that a shocking revelation of anti-democratic thinking.


Michael Trigoboff commented:

Democracy is an attempt to extract high-quality decisions from large masses of low-quality components.

We hope that voters will care about and be informed about the issues. How is the quality of electoral decisions affected by including voters who are so unmotivated that you literally have to chase them down, put the ballots in their hands, and then put the ballots in the mailbox for them? How much attention have they paid to any of the important issues?

Things like “motor voter“ are just a way to empower a different set of political elites, ones aligned with the Democratic Party. Some people (I.e. Democrats) think this is a good idea, for obvious reasons. But casting these schemes as “the essence of democracy“ is just the latest political propaganda from a particular faction.


I told him I might use that in a blog post and asked for clarification. I wrote:

Democracy seeks to reflect the consent of the governed.  There are protections against bad decisions in the fact that states can chart their own path, protections of minority rights and protections of individuals in the bill of rights. It presumes that the majority is sometimes wrong.

 

The attraction of a Chinese-style authoritarian government is that well-informed people make decisions. This means that they have the metric system and good infrastructure decisions, but it also means that the governing elite needs to suppress dissent because the credibility of the leaders is diminished when things work out poorly. It doesn’t self-correct easily.

 

Anyhow, you aren't dead wrong. But I do think your comment reflects the point of view of a person whose life experience and position puts him among the “elite.” That makes you smart, but it doesn’t make you right and it most certainly doesn’t mean your decisions are popular

 

Trigoboff responded:

In computer science, there are error correction codes like Hamming Codes. Error correcting codes can detect these flipped bits and flip them back to what they should have been.

The subject area of error detection and correction covers how to get correct results despite the presence of faulty hardware components, faulty data transmission, etc.
Trigoboff, recent
The space shuttle, for instance, was operated by three computers running in parallel. As long as they all agreed, the shuttle did what they commanded. If one of them disagreed with the other two, that one was dropped out of the decision process and a fourth identical computer was swapped in. If there was no agreement at all between the three computers, they were all dropped and a different computer running software written by a different company stepped in and took over.

You can look at an election as a decision process involving a large number of components (voters). Some of those components are likely to be faulty or of otherwise low-quality. Can we design that decision process to produce high-quality results despite those low-quality components?

Looked at that way, working hard to include even lower quality components (voters who are less-informed, less-motivated, etc,) is not going to improve the quality of the decisions made by the electorate. It will just lead to an electorate even more susceptible to disinformation and manipulation.

Which is not to say that I am a supporter of Chinese authoritarianism. I am definitely not, and I am probably more likely than most of your readers to be in favor of defending the independence of Taiwan with military force if that's what it takes.

Science-fiction author Robert A. Heinlein wrote a book called Starship Troopers. It describes a future history in which "the disorders" happened, and society broke down to the point where the military had to take over. The military institutes a new system of democracy in which only military veterans have the right to vote because only military veterans give enough of a rip about the survival of their society to be willing to put their lives on the line. I kind of like that idea, even though I wouldn't get to vote under that system.

I am not necessarily advocating for that particular system, but I think at this point in our country's history we are not asking enough of our citizens. When you have to chase people down and hand them the ballot and then “help them vote” (presumably the “right way,” according to the helper) and collect the ballot from them so that all they need to do is not die during the process (although perhaps not even that), I think we are not asking enough. People tend not to value things that are just handed to them.

I am not saying these things because I am "elite." I am saying them because I value competence and excellence and hard work. I say what I think is right, and I don't worry a lot about whether that will make me or my thoughts popular. Alfred Wegener was not popular, and his theory of continental drift was widely derided for decades, until conclusive proof of it emerged in the 1960s. But he was competent and excellent, and he was right. I would rather have been him than all of his critics put together.

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[Note: In tomorrow's blog post I will share my thoughts about the supposed "wisdom of crowds" as it relates to investment pricing. Spoiler alert: I think the premise is crazy.]



21 comments:

Dave said...

Does this mean we can void all voters who get their “news” from Fox News? Surely they are poorly informed voters. That sounds good to me, but I suspect Fox viewers would disagree. Maybe only property owners like it used to be? I got an idea, how about all American citizens? China’s elite decision makers can’t seem to handle the truth. Choosing a select few strikes me as dangerous as deciding who those few are is problematic. Kings and nobles viewed as your bettors. We have done that already and it was great for the kings, but not so great for everyday people.

Art Baden said...

There’s a difference between high quality voters and highly motivated voters.

People most afraid of losing something are more highly motivated than those who aren’t in fear. Wealthy elites and regressive Fox News addicts are highly motivated to vote because they fear their privileged status threatened, or their misconceived perception of reality threatened. That may not make them higher quality voters.

Mike said...

The inherent error in Michael’s computer analogy is that voters are not the components making decisions. Voters elect leaders who make decisions for them, usually guided by plenty of "free speech" from their corporate donors.

We’re stuck with two political parties, and each wants to be the only one in power. To that end, Republicans seek to suppress the vote and Democrats to make it easier. It has nothing to do with Trumplicans being higher quality components than the urban poor; it’s all about lust for power. As we saw on Jan. 6, Trumplicans are willing to kill for it.

Thomas Jefferson noted that a properly functioning democracy depends on an informed electorate. If we want our republic to survive, students need to be taught civics, history (including Black history), critical thinking skills and how to tell information from disinformation. Unfortunately, that is anathema to Republicans who call it woke, liberal bias, cancel culture, blah blah blah. Oh well, at least we can still go online and whine about it.

Rick Millward said...

I think the fundamental fallacy here is that humans aren't computers, though I understand how one can see some parallels. Movies like "The Matrix" make the point that even an infinitely complex system can't rival the human heart.

Mc said...

The US should make voting as easy as possible.
Republicans are simply afraid of the truth.

Sally said...

Mr Trigoboff and I are on the same page.

“When you have to chase people down and hand them the ballot and then “help them vote” (presumably the “right way,” according to the helper) and collect the ballot from them so that all they need to do is not die during the process (although perhaps not even that), I think we are not asking enough.”

To repeat what I’ve said elsewhere, don’t endorse the result if you don’t endorse the process.

Results change; processes are the fundament.

Diane Newell Meyer said...

The complaint in the various voting bills is not that the voter gets handed something they don't want or are ignorant about, but that it is too tough for many who want to vote to so! Some states with counties having a single polling place with long lines only tests physical stamina and transportation availability and not a voter's knowledge or desire to vote. Some elderly people cannot get out to vote or mail in a ballot without help. Some critical workers cannot take a day off to vote if there is only one voting day.
As a previous poll worker and door to door canvasser for issues, I am aware that a lot of people do not vote in the off-year elections. We need to work to make it both possible and desirable for them to vote.

Sally said...

Diane:

There are better ~~ and worser ~~ ways to do that.

Michael Trigoboff said...

Voters make decisions about who will represent them. In some states like Oregon and California, voters also directly make decisions via initiatives and referenda. Either way, the quality of voters' decisions matters a lot.

Some Republicans have reacted to the intrusion of "wokeness" into K-12 schools in clumsy and idiotic ways by doing things like banning books or entire subject areas. That is clearly wrong, but it is easily matched by woke stupidity from the other side.

Take the "woke math" movement, especially prominent in California, which promotes ideas like deemphasizing the need to get the right answer. In math? Really? The Webb telescope didn't make it into space successfully because no one cared about the right answer. Read this article and see if you think the woke math educators in California have it right.

Regarding critical race theory, left-wing propagandists have taken to claiming that CRT is a abstract legal theory that is only taught in law schools, and is not taught in K-12 classes. This is clever rhetoric designed to deflect the issue, but it ignores how K-12 curricula have been influenced in significant ways by ideas that emanate from CRT. Here's just one example of an objectionable CRT-based activity in a K-12 school.

Some Republicans have gone about opposing wokeness in K-12 in wrong and dysfunctional ways. Some educators have introduced wokeness into K-12 schools in wrong and dysfunctional ways. There is no reason why intelligent people can't oppose both of these tendencies simultaneously.

Michael Trigoboff said...

I am all for removing barriers to voting in a reasonable and common-sense way. I am not in favor of treating voters as helpless objects of compassion who have to be carried through the process of voting as if they have no personal agency or ability to act as independent and functional citizens.

Some voting reforms advocated by Democrats appear to be attempts to create a large number of puppets that can be remote-controlled by a political machine. That is the sort of thing I am opposed to. Case in point: ACORN.

Michael Trigoboff said...

Humans are definitely not computers. Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem tells tells us that any system of logic (such as a computer) will have fundamental limitations that humans most likely do not have. Humans and animals are conscious in ways that computers as we currently know them cannot possibly match.

We’re a very long way from reproducing anything like human intelligence. A lot of what is called AI these days (e.g. cars that drive themselves) might be more accurately described as Artificial Insects. Ants can “drive” themselves to and from their nests. Bees can do it in three dimensions.

Consider this: a Turing Machine is a little mechanism that moves around on a long tape, reacting to data recorded on the tape. Turing machines are important because they are equivalent to computers but are simple enough to be useful in mathematical proofs about what computers can and cannot do.

A ribosome is a little mechanism that moves around on a long tape (DNA), creating proteins encoded by data on the “tape.” Ribosomes and Turing Machines seem pretty similar to me.

There are ~37 trillion cells in a human body, and ~10 million ribosomes in a human cell. Which means we each contain ~3.7 * 10^20 computer equivalents running in parallel. And that’s just the ribosomes. Human intelligence and consciousness seem to be phenomena that emerge from that complexity.

The idea that we might produce something equivalent from even 10,000 computers running in parallel strikes me as unlikely. There’s a complexity barrier standing between AI and its goal.

In a way, AI research consists of “hitting your head against the same wall” over and over again. I think we repeatedly do this because as computers get more and more powerful we see “the wall” at higher and higher resolutions, so it looks different. As a result, we fail to realize that it’s always exactly the same wall.

I finally left the field of artificial intelligence firmly convinced that attempting AI was the appropriate punishment for committing the sin of pride of thinking that we could reproduce anything like human intelligence and consciousness with our current computers.

Low Dudgeon said...

Michael--

Is the example of Big Blue and chess against Garry Kasparov still just a matter of degree, not kind, or rather computations, not creativity?

Diane Newell Meyer said...

To Michael Trigoboff
for an interesting and detailed discussion on the evolution of an AI to sentience (caused by its own self-improvement not caused by humans building one) see tge science fiction novel by M.J. Locke, - Up Against It (2011, i think. I am not the expert you are, but it seems likely to happen at some point. The computer itself could break the glass ceiling for AI intelligence.

Doug Snider said...

I commend Peter Sage for his thought provoking commentaries which lead to enlightening discussions like this one. Unlike many online echo chambers, this forum encourages thoughtful, nuanced responses rather than knee-jerk defenses of rigidly held positions. Critical thinking is alive and well and I welcome it.

Mike said...

Michael –

You said a mouthful. Let’s take just one item: “Left-wing propagandists have taken to claiming that CRT is a abstract legal theory that is only taught in law schools, and is not taught in K-12 classes.” Left wing propagandists claim that because it’s a fact. Perhaps what Trumplicans find so objectionable are attempts to introduce K-12 students to our treatment of African and Native Americans, i.e. American history. I can see how you might think it too much for impressionable young minds to bear, but I think they can handle it if they can handle video games.

Yes, the quality of voters’ decisions matter a lot. That’s why we need to invest in public education - not divert funding from it - and teach students the skills to be good citizens. Part of being a good citizen is exercising the right to vote, which is why we need to make it as convenient as possible for everyone. Some claim that would increase voter fraud. If they have any evidence of it, they should provide it to Giuliani and the Kraken lawyer, because they’ve come up with zip.

Michael Trigoboff said...

LD,

Games like Chess and Go are very limited logical worlds. Even when software exceeds human capabilities in these domains, it's not clear whether it's done the same way as humans do it, or whether what machines do can be extended to the point of intelligence and/or consciousness.

Another aspect of this is that when a neural network is trained to do some task (like playing a complex game), we aren't any better at understanding what it knows or how it accomplishes that task then we are at understanding the same things about a human. The "knowledge" of a neural network consists of an enormous mass of numbers that represent the strengths of neural connections. You can't look at those numbers and see anything recognizable as chess knowledge. It's a deep mystery.

But then again, we don't even understand how the "mind" of the very simple worm C. Elegans works, even though we have a complete map of its neurons and how they connect to each other. We may possibly be up against something we are no more capable of understanding than C. Elegans can understand a radio.

Michael Trigoboff said...

Diane,

I've read articles about how Google is constructing a neural network with more neurons than a human brain has. The problem is that they’re hooking things like this up to power grids, industrial facilities, stock exchanges, and many other things on the Internet.

These neural networks are complex enough to possibly have consciousness emerge within them. It won’t be anything like our consciousness, and it's difficult to imagine what they will make of their “world,” consisting of all of the inputs they get from cameras, weather stations, stock markets, etc.

The bottom line is, we’re creating an entity (the intelligent Internet) that can control a lot of our infrastructure, and we have no idea what this thing will feel like doing when it wakes up.

If you remember the flash crash, that was a set of mechanisms that became so complex that all sorts of uncontrollable behaviors became possible. I don’t think there was much consciousness involved there, but there’s a lot of potential for it now in the much more complex systems that we're currently building.

And then we have the story “Answer,” from Angels and Spaceships by Fredric Brown (Dutton, 1954). I remember reading this sometime in the 1950s.

Dwar Ev ceremoniously soldered the final connection with gold. The eyes of a dozen television cameras watched him and the subether bore through the universe a dozen pictures of what he was doing.

He straightened and nodded to Dwar Reyn, then moved to a position beside the switch that would complete the contact when he threw it. The switch that would connect, all at once, all of the monster computing machines of all the populated planets in the universe--ninety-six billion planets--into the supercircuit that would connect them all into the one supercalculator, one cybernetics machine that would combine all the knowledge of all the galaxies.

Dwar Reyn spoke briefly to the watching and listening trillions. Then, after a moment's silence, he said, "Now, Dwar Ev."

Dwar Ev threw the switch. There was a mighty hum, the surge of power from ninety-six billion planets. Lights flashed and quieted along the miles-long panel.

Dwar Ev stepped back and drew a deep breath. "The honor of asking the first question is yours, Dwar Reyn."

"Thank you," said Dwar Reyn. "It shall be a question that no single cybernetics machine has been able to answer."

He turned to face the machine. "Is there a God?"

The mighty voice answered without hesitation, without the clicking of single relay.

"Yes, now there is a God."

Sudden fear flashed on the face of Dwar Ev. He leaped to grab the switch.

A bolt of lightning from the cloudless sky struck him down and fused the switch shut.


Fears of Artificial Intelligence go back a long way…

Mike said...


Michael -

Voting is our right and should be as easy as possible for everyone. Oregon does a great job of it. Nor is there any credible evidence that making it easier results in fraud.

CRT is a law school course. It isn't taught in K-12, but it's become a rallying cry for those who oppose teaching Black history and its impact on current events.

Merriam-Webster defines "woke" as "aware of and actively attentive to important facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)." It's hard to understand why some folks find that so offensive. I'd be surprised if those who take it to extremes are any greater in number than those who like to dish out the racial slurs.

Michael Trigoboff said...

Ideas based on CRT have found their way into the curricula of many K-12 schools. I posted an example earlier in this thread.

"Woke" refers to a tendency on the left that is fanatically intolerant of any other point of view and seeks to cancel and deplatform anyone who dares to disagree. It's one thing to advocate for racial and social justice. It's quite another to insist on there being only One True Way to implement those things, and that everyone with a different idea is evil and needs to be silenced.

John McWhorter says that wokeness is a religion -- an extremely intolerant fundamentalist religion. I agree with him.

Mike said...

Your definition sounds extreme and self-serving. I'll stick with Merrian-Webster's.

Ralph Bowman said...

Voting for WHO OF THE WHOM? The voter will never know. It’s all smoke and mirrors paid for by the investor class. Democrat corporate or the Republican corporate? Must pay for TV TO GET ON PUBLIC AIR WAVES. So get on the internet and speak to the homeless in their tent. So many don’t vote because don’t read, don’t care, not effected no matter who gets in . The status Quo makes happy commercials, makes happy talk , makes religious nonsense beautiful . Despair is never seen; doesn’t sell ads. Vote for the lessor of two evils. Fiction. And the frying pan gets hotter and hotter. Easy vote , no vote, make your voice heard, talking on a tin can tied with string to the other tin can. Who is listening in? Collecting strings to tie you to the post. I vote for the mustache!
I vote for eyebrows! I vote for the sneer! I vote for da woman with white teeth!