Other people have the right to kill you in self- defense if they fear you are a mortal threat.
Roger Fortson, a 23 year old airman on active duty, was at his home in Florida when someone knocked on his door. The person at the door identified himself as a policeman and demanded that all occupants come to the door. Fortson, who is Black, answered the door carrying a gun in his right hand. It was pointed down. When Fortson opened the door the deputy sheriff saw the gun and immediately shot Fortson six times. When Fortson was lying on the floor, dying, the deputy told him to drop the gun. All this happened almost instantly.
Watch 55 seconds of video from the deputy's body camera.
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| Click Here |
The commentary from the libertarian right -- Reason.com -- takes the position that Fortson was simply exercising his Second Amendment right to carry a gun. He should not have been shot.
The article cites another case in New Mexico and one in Mississippi.In Minnesota, a Black man named Philando Castile told the officer in a routine traffic stop that he had a weapon in the car -- again as was his right. The police officer told him not to pull out his gun. The officer asked him to present his license and registration. Castile reached to get it from the glove box. The officer immediately shot him, fearing he was reaching for a weapon. The officer was acquitted of any crime. The officer testified he feared for his life.
The weight of most of the commentary on these incidents is that it is perfectly legal to carry a firearm and that this right should be respected. One should not presume a threat just because someone is carrying a gun.
I disagree. A person carrying a gun in a confrontation is a threat. They are capable of deadly force in an instant and one does not know their intent, only their capability.
Stand-your-ground laws mean in practice that people who feel threatened by others can use deadly force against that threat. Who wouldn't feel threatened by a stranger who is carrying a gun? Openly carrying a gun is a statement of readiness to use it. It is asking for trouble. And anyone confronting a person who is asking for trouble has every right to be worried.
Two rights are in conflict -- the right to bear arms and the right of self-defense -- and the current version of gun culture is making the danger worse. The emphasis is on gun rights, not gun safety. You have a gun. Be ready to use it. We are in arms race. One strategy, being carried out with increasing frequency, is to be armed. Be ready to shoot first, in self-defense. Lawyers can sort it out later.
There is another calculation to consider. Who gets the benefit of the doubt in a confrontation? The police are almost always considered right. Women are right if the person shot is a man. White people are right if the person shot is dark-skinned. A prosperous person with the ability to pay for a good defense is right, especially if the person killed is poor. Old people are right if the person killed is young.
The shooter is right if the person shot is associated with an unpopular cause or group. Governor Abbott's pardon was a statement about Black Lives Matter. Had Daniel Perry shot a participant at a Trump rally I would expect a different, indeed the opposite, result.
As a prosperous old White guy I would probably get most of the benefit of the doubt in a shootout. It is unfair, but it is the way of the world. But I have a different strategy. I avoid the confrontation. I don't own or carry a gun. I attempt to look harmless. I think that is safer than thinking I can shoot first. The word is full of erratic and belligerent people, and many of them are armed and dangerous. I try to avoid them.
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31 comments:
RE: "I have a strategy. I don't own or carry a gun. I attempt to look harmless. I think that is safer than thinking I can shoot first. The word is full of erratic and belligerent people, and many of them are armed and dangerous. I try to avoid them."
Ditto.
I told my son when he was a cadet at West Point, that there was no need to buy and have a weapon, just because he wanted one. Now, looking back as a commissioned US Army officer, he still does agree it was the right decision at the time, as it is now.
Yes, we have a gun culture here in the US. But that alone is not the only reason why there are crimes and tragic deaths.
I don't, however, equate those gun rights as leading to unnecessary shootings.
Peter, you are right, having a weapon in hand won't always protect you.
As for the example cited, we don't fully know why that airman answered the door with a weapon in his hand. We don't know what that law enforcement officer was thinking at that immediate moment. The officer may have done the same thing if the airman had a baseball bat or a knife in his hand when the door was answered. We don't know the crime stats for the apartment area.
What do we do/should do if an officer is banging on the door and identifying himself as "The Police"?
Unfortunately, the answer is "it depends", and it won't get any better if open carry or owning a weapon is prohibited.
This is still very true: "when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns"...
I have lived in two worlds, one where carrying a gun meant nothing, as everyone did. And two, where I live now in a senior living community where none carry a weapon. What has changed in our society today? There is a feeling of the other. A tribal sense of fear of the other tribe. The Me-ism feeling is promoted by elements in our society seeking to divide us or, cynically, sell us guns. What has changed is we live in a society that has guns but doesn't teach proper respect and handling of these weapons. We're allowed to buy a gun and use a gun without demonstrating proficiency and reasoning when to shoot. Compounding all this is the isolation that is griping our nation, where more people live alone and interact on-line. We are losing our humanity.
Adding insult to injury, the deputy who shot Folsom was at the wrong apartment.
Law enforcement officers are also being shot in large numbers – 98 between January and March. In Charlotte, North Carolina, four were killed and four others wounded by a felon with an assault rifle. This was just our most sensational, but not most recent, mass shooting.
Former Phoenix police chief Jeri Williams called for a ban on assault-style weapons and high-capacity magazines, telling Congress in 2022: “We are out-gunned. We’re out-manned. We’re out-staffed.” Republicans ignored her as Second Amendment absolutism has spread, anchored by key Supreme Court decisions.
It always reminds me of the famous headline in The Onion on gun violence: ‘No Way to Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens.
Gun ownership relates to one standard deviation increase in suicide, around 14%. I have bear pepper spray for protection as I don’t want to kill anyone or myself. I do wonder if all the Trump fanatics will be the only ones with guns, but I’m old so I’m going to stay out of it.
Today's menu includes a large serving of stereotypes for the intellectually lazy, simple-minded crowd. Making Archie Bunker Proud Again.
Also, you just told the whole world that you don't own a gun. You just made yourself and your family an easy target. Criminal-types may not be regular readers, but word gets around. Unreal
Peter’s strategy is fine as far as it goes. But what is Peter going to do if someone attacks him anyway?
If Peter is not well trained in martial arts and physically capable of employing them, having a concealed firearm would give him an ability to defend himself effectively.
Oregon allows its citizens to carry weapons concealed. It requires a license that includes a criminal background check. People with concealed carry permits commit crimes with their weapons at vanishingly low rates.
Recently, Democrats have restricted concealed carry permit holders from many areas, because feelings. They cannot point to even a single crime that these restrictions would have prevented.
Open carry of firearms can cause all kinds of problems, as Peter points out. But none of those problems are caused by concealed carry.
Just a little reminder:
During a music festival in Las Vegas, a single gunman killed 50 people and wounded 413 in a matter of minutes. There are three legal uses for firearms: hunting, target shooting and self-defense. None of them require that kind of firepower.
When the Second Amendment was written, they had no clue what sort of weaponry would become available to any idiot. Maybe it’s time for the amendment to be amended – too bad if True Believers in the NRA’s bumper sticker philosophy get their feelings hurt. But of course, Republicans would never allow anything to be done about the carnage besides offering thoughts and prayers. They get too much support from the merchants of death.
By the way, states with stricter gun laws have less gun violence - big surprise!
Measuring gun violence by state is the wrong measure. Violence is very different in urban versus rural areas.
Gun violence is very high in cities that have very strict laws: Baltimore, Chicago, and Washington DC, for example. What matters more than gun laws is the criminals, and how well or not they are controlled.
https://drexel.edu/uhc/resources/briefs/BCHC%20Gun%20Deaths/
Happiness is a warm gun (bang, bang, shoot, shoot)
Happiness is a warm gun, momma (bang, bang, shoot, shoot)
When I hold you in my arms (ooh, oh, yeah)
And I feel my finger on your trigger (ooh, oh, yeah)
I know nobody can do me no harm (ooh, oh, yeah)
Because
Happiness is a warm gun, yes it is (bang, bang, shoot, shoot)
Happiness is a warm, yes it is, gun (happiness, bang, bang, shoot, shoot)
Well, don't you know that happiness is a warm gun momma?
(Happiness is a warm gun, yeah)
To clarify a misconception:
From 2011 to 2020, the most rural counties in the U.S. had a 37% higher rate of gun deaths per capita than the most urban counties, according to research published in the journal JAMA Surgery. That's up from a 25% difference from 2000 to 2010.
RE: that misconception...
There's a lot more capita in the cities than in rural areas.
Quantity wise, there's still a lot more gun crime in the cities than in those rural areas.
There's lies, damn lies, and statistics!
And yes, I agree that we do have a gun problem that won't go away by banning gun ownership. This is societal issue that is well established.
The figures Mike quotes include suicides.
But when it comes to criminal violence committed against other people, the cities are far in the lead, even cities with very strict gun regulations.
A Country Boy Can Survive
by Hank Williams Jr.
The preacher man says it's the end of time
And the Mississippi River, she's a-goin' dry
The interest is up and the stock market's down
And you only get mugged if you go downtown
I live back in the woods you see
My woman and the kids and the dogs and me
I got a shotgun, a rifle and a four-wheel drive
And a country boy can survive
Country folks can survive
Guns make you insane.
PS: In Oregon, Harney County had the highest gun death rate, followed by Klamath County and Lake County - not exactly our most urban. Gun violence in the U.S. is not just a big city problem.
So you don't care about suicides?
Good to know.
Criminal gun violence (as opposed to e.g. suicide) is largely an urban problem.
It doesn’t do much good for cities or even states to make strict gun laws when the residents can drive a short distance and buy whatever they want. Mexico has strict gun laws, but the cartels just get them from the U.S. We’re nuts. There’s no excuse for weapons designed to quickly kill as many people as possible to be so available.
Urban vs. rural is just BS. The U.S. has by far the highest rate of gun violence among high-income countries. Where there are more guns, there’s more gun violence. Republicans’ answer to the problem is more guns. Instead of regulating them, arm more people – teachers, for example. They care more about which bathroom kids use than whether they get shot.
So you don't care about suicides?
It’s not a matter of “don’t care“. It’s a matter of distinguishing between categories that are different in important ways.
There is no interpersonal danger from people committing suicide with firearms, unless they miss their head and someone else is unlucky enough to be in the line of fire, an extremely unlikely circumstance. There are plenty of ways to prevent suicides that have nothing to do with restricting gun rights.
There is plenty of interpersonal danger from criminals with guns, and that is disproportionately an urban problem regardless of how restrictive local gun laws are in those cities.
The White-wing media have always held up cities with large Black populations such as Baltimore, Chicago and Washington DC as examples of the futility of gun laws to prevent gun violence among their populations. In reality, most of the guns used for crimes in Baltimore are from out of state, and no doubt the situation is similar in the others. What it shows the need for is rational national gun legislation, but rational legislating isn’t on the Republican agenda.
JACKSON COUNTY
COUNTYWIDE
Measure 15-224: Jackson County Commissioners party affiliation
Measure 15-224 proposes switching the Jackson County Commissioners from partisan to non-partisan, starting in the 2026 primary election. If voters approve this measure, Section 9 of the Charter of Jackson County would change.
“This measure changes the elected Commissioners from a partisan office to a non-partisan office,” the Jackson County sample ballot said. “This means no political affiliation will be shown on the ballot next to the candidate for county commissioner.”
YES: 44.42%, 17,980 votes
NO: 55.58%, 22,499 votes
Measure 15-225: Jackson County Commissioners amount
This measure, if approved, would increase the number of Jackson County Commissioners from three to five. If voters approve it, it would change Section 5 and Section 9 of the Charter of Jackson County, with no more than three of the five positions open per election.
“This measure sets out additional requirements regarding the two additional Commissioner positions who will be elected in the 2026 general election and will serve initial two-year terms,” the sample ballot said. “The purpose of the initial two-year term is so that no more than three of the five positions come up for election in the same year. Following the end of the initial two-year term of the two new commissioner positions, the election term will be four years.”
YES: 46.33%, 18,763 votes
NO: 53.67%, 21,735 votes
Measure 15-226: Jackson County Commissioners salary
Measure 15-226 would decrease the salaries of the Jackson County commissioners to $75,000. Section 24 of the Jackson County Charter would change and set the salaries at $75,000 starting Jan. 1, 2027.
“Any future change in commissioner salary would be annually indexed to the average wage in Jackson County,” the sample ballot said. “This will cause a decrease in Commissioner salaries. Currently Commissioners salaries are set annually by the Jackson County Budget Committee. For the fiscal year 2023-2024 the annual salary range is $123,884.80 - $143,416.”
YES: 64.35%, 25,942 votes
NO: 35.65%, 14,373 votes
This measure does not go into effect unless Measure 15-225, which would increase the amount of commissioners from three to five, also passes. If Measure 15-225 does not pass, this one will also not pass no matter how votes were cast for it.
A lot of comments here
30 years ago a young engineer I hired had bought a house in a slowly gentrifying neighborhood in Seattle that was known for moderate to high crime.
He got a concealed permit and bought a 9mm handgun. I asked him if he was prepared to take someone’s life. He looked sort of shocked and said that he got it as a deterrent and protection. I told him that if he feels threatened and presents it, it wouldn’t be seen as deterrent but a threat, and if he wasn’t prepared to kill the other person he would likely be the one injured of killed by the other guy.
A few weeks later he sold his gun. He said he could not live with the idea he had killed someone, even in defense of his own life. It was a moral choice for him.
I have a concealed license but don’t carry except in the back woods. Otherwise it’s in the safe. I regularly shoot at the range at static targets without adrenaline and I get a good grouping at 10-15 yards but not very accurate beyond that. I can’t imagine my accuracy in a high stakes situation, especially with other people around.
Even if you are constantly committed to practicing, most people, even police officers have less than stellar marksmanship in real life situations.
I agree with Peter. If you’re going to carry, you have a higher chance of being a victim. Not to be fatalistic but we all have to go sometime and I’d rather take the chance of it being from natural causes than provoking someone to shoot me because I’m seen as a threat. And if I’m wrong, it won’t matter 30 years from now.
It would appear the flood of disinformation and flat out lies by the opposition carried the day for corruption and greed to continue unhindered. The roughly 29% approval advantage of the Salary measures might be a wake-up call to the BoC, but I doubt it. It also points to the inability of the Yes Voters to bother trying to understand the Measures, ele they would have approved the increase in Commission size from 3 to 5.
Accusing gun rights advocates of racism via code words like “white wing” only has the effect of increasing polarization without doing anything for the victims of violent criminals in blue inner cities. It’s just a way of raising a middle finger at people who will be only too happy to raise it back at you.
Those who keep considering per capita or so-called "homicide rates" should read up on statistical independence. There is not enough information in "X uses gun to kill Y in town of population Z" to establish any sort of predictive model.
If you can't make predictions, you have no dependent variables. If you have no dependent variables, your statistics are uncorrelated.
It's even worse when any one of X, Y, or Z is a binary comparison, like police vs non-police, or white person vs non-white person, or small town vs big town. Introducing a binary ratio totaling 1 guarantees that the variables are independent because no control is introduced to provide skew.
Anyways, when the police come banging on your door, don't answer with a gun in your hands. If you are lucky enough to survive that, then please simply drop the gun. Just drop it. Really! It's easy, you just literally drop the gun, or the knife, or the whatever, and try not to make sudden movements. Police don't like that. If this response bothers you then you probably think per capita gun homicide rates have meaning.
Over 42,000 people died as the result of gun injuries in the U.S. in 2023, NIHCM reports. The number of people killed by firearm violence, a leading cause of premature death, grew by nearly 43% between 2010 and 2020. Doctors and public health officials consider it an epidemic. That does have meaning, but only if you care.
Need to separate suicide from self defense from gangs and crime.
I don't own any guns but I'm not anti gun.
I'm against making guns an issue for elections.
Just another data point from a NY Times article today:
New York Times:
Almost 6,000 Dead in 6 Years: How Baltimore Became the U.S. Overdose Capital — The city was once hailed for its response to addiction. But as fentanyl flooded the streets and officials shifted priorities, deaths hit unprecedented heights. — This is the first part in a series exploring Baltimore's overdose crisis.
Drugs are already illegal, yet people die needlessly.
It's not just guns that kill people in great numbers.
It's true, a lot of people kill themselves with drugs. A lot of people kill others with guns. Yes, I know, they do with cars too. The difference is that too many guns are designed specifically to kill many people quickly.
Gun rights versus gun control is a frozen issue. If Sandy Hook didn’t move the needle, I don’t think it’s going to be politically practical to unfreeze it. At that point, it’s just the two sides throwing insults at each other recreationally.
All that has happened here in Oregon is useless rules affecting concealed carry permit holders, who are the least likely people to commit crimes with guns.
Might as well focus attention somewhere else, where productive action might be possible.
Those who experienced the horror and survived at Sandy Hook, Uvalde and too many other schools might beg to differ.
https://www.sandyhookpromise.org/blog/gun-violence/facts-about-gun-violence-and-school-shootings/
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