Monday, August 2, 2021

"Peter, you have watched too much Fox News"

A doctor told me I was wrong. 


I had written it was time for Democrats to stop telling vaccinated people to mask up.


Time to move on, I had said. The virus is endemic. Now we should admit we are simply going to live with it.

My premise in a recent post was that the government had done what it could on COVID. Government advisories and requirements regarding masking and distancing gave us time to create a vaccine. It is free and available. The vaccinated are generally at as much risk of getting sick as we were pre-COVID.  

From this point forward, I argued, it was in the hands of the individuals. It is an epidemic of the un-vaccinated. A great many people evaluate the risk of the vaccine as greater than the risk of COVID. I think it is crazy, but they are not me. Maybe they just feel pressured and harangued by earnest do-gooders. Maybe they already had COVID. Maybe they know somebody who lost a day's work from feeling fatigued after the second shot. Maybe they watch Fox News and they imagine they are resisting tyrants. Everybody has a reason.

My point is that the big, meta-message by Democrats is now being perceived as overkill by a critical mass of Americans. Democrats care too much. People who aren't vaccinated have their chance and they vote with the unmistakable body language of not getting vaccinated.

Reality is an unforgiving teacher. If Trump-supporting Democrats-can't-make-me people are the ones getting sick and dying, eventually people will wise up.  Or not. It is a free country.

Eliot Nierman

Eliot Nierman is a physician, a professor at a medical school, and a college classmate. He has posted here before, with a very popular post urging people to wear masks because his own and other hospital systems were being overwhelmed by COVID patients. He sent me three letters in short succession telling me I was wrong. I have woven them together and edited them lightly to turn them into this Guest Post.


Guest Post by Eliot Nierman


Peter, you have watched too much Fox News and similar information sources. You may be correct about the politics but are dead wrong about the science and medical facts. 

The difference between COVID vaccination and masking and risky behaviors like riding a motorcycle is that vaccinated people are wearing masks primarily to protect the unvaccinated rather than themselves. If COVID risk just included those who could get vaccinated but refused, then you could say the unvaccinated dug their own graves by choice. But the risk includes kids who can’t get vaccinated and people for whom the vaccines don’t work--the immunosuppressed. The delta variant is more deadly for them, too, and who knows where the next mutation will take us. Vaccines may no longer work, and children may no longer largely be spared.

With the delta variant out there and spreading, there is also the risk of vaccinated people getting asymptomatic infection and infecting others. The unvaccinated have no qualms about requiring and expecting medical care when they get sick even though they are putting medical personnel and their children at avoidable risk. People who do known risky behaviors--motorcycles, SCUBA, smoke cigarettes--often pay a premium in terms of insurance, as they should. I am not aware of any situation where not getting vaccinated for COVID raises a premium. 

About the only things your examples of fatty food, cigarette smoking, and motorcycle-riding share in common with COVID are that they all increase medical costs that the rest of us share. However, I will be fair and mention the benefits to the rest of us in terms of unhealthy behavior by others. They do die at younger ages and save the Social Security system money. I wish every cyclist would wear a helmet, but the reality is that the ones that do not provide a disproportionate share of young, healthy organs to transplant. 

One more thing that you are getting wrong: Because vaccination rates are much higher in the elderly and sick than in the young and healthy, and because the delta variant is both more infectious and more deadly than the earlier forms of COVID, a large percentage of those now in the hospital getting critically ill and dying are young and otherwise healthy--the most tragic and costly people to lose.

I have no disagreement with you about recognizing the disappointment vaccinated people feel about being advised to go back to masks and distancing. What is happening among Democrats and medical people is that we are feeling increasing anger at the non-vaccinated who are subjecting the rest of us to this. That anger is probably counter-productive in the political realm.

But, honestly that is supposed to the difference between adults and children. One group faces reality and the other lives in a fantasy works of denial over the effects of vaccine-refusal. Sometimes reality sucks and pretending it does not only makes things worse. And remember we are just talking about a mask and a vaccine, not shutting down the whole economy again. If everyone who could get vaccinated went ahead and got vaccinated, even masking would be unnecessary as would this conversation. 





8 comments:

Low Dudgeon said...

Sorry, Doctor. The risks of COVID hospitalizations and death right now in young children and the vaccinated, Delta and otherwise, remains tiny in absolute terms, which at this point are the terms that matter. The unvaccinated have their own issues, whatever they may be, and they are not the ones clamoring for others to protect them. The otherwise vulnerable have taken steps all along, which they will continue. Overall societal utility, especially the economy and public education, should carry the day now, and that is indeed a political matter. The logical extension of your approach is masks in perpetuity because of real but ever-dwindling transactional benefits to life and limb. Plastic bubbles would be even better?

Anonymous said...

Wearing a mask in a health-care setting makes sense. But for vaccinated people, their chances of contracting CoVid19 are small; and, if they contract it their symptoms are mild. Hospitalization rates for fully vaccinated people are minuscule (0.003 per 100,000). Truth be told, children below the age of 12 need to wear masks in public settings. So orders Oregon, K-12 will wear masks in school. Looking at the vaccinated individuals, if they do experience a case of CoVid19 they should quarantine and wear a mask as the 6 Texas State Senators are doing in D.C. The message heard by the public about getting vaccinated is it was highly effective. The general public took that to mean they had a low or no chance of contracting CoVid19. Of course that isn’t how vaccines work generally. Think about the annual flu shot. How many times have you been vaccinated against the annual strain of flu only to come down with the flu? What my health provider says to me is “Yes you got the flu but you don’t require hospitalization. We can treat your symptoms because your immune system is weak but fighting just the same. Rest, fluids and over-the-counter medicine will make you more comfortable” If we were in another culture like Japan when you don’t feel well you wear a mask, if you're on the train or plane you wear a mask. Our culture places the value on individual freedom whereas the Japanese consider the wellbeing of the group. Japan also has national healthcare we don’t so it reinforces the feeling of “I am on my own with this disease.” Japan made a huge mistake with the CoVid vaccine, they failed to place an order with the pharmaceutical compiles for their people. We see this lack of vaccination on-screen daily watching the Olympics.

Bob Warren said...

Anonymous and Low Dudgeon seem very well informed, HOWEVER, Dr Nierman has the unenviable DAILY task of trying to stem what may well be the beginning of the end for life as we know it on this planet. Considering the verified age of our planet and some intriguing hints that suggest the cycle of life on Earth we are now enjoying may well not be the first (previous events have conspired to allow civilizations to develop and then swatted them into oblivion with something akin to Covid-19) We must, for the sake of enduring as a viable life form on this planet confront the fact that modern man is not one iota superior to his slave holding predecessors, the men we often revere in our history books.. So heed the good doctor, he needs us on his side, and it's not his fault that Covid has not yet run its course on our planet. Bob Warren

Sally said...

I’m not sure what the real disagreement is here. You both think everyone should get vaccinated. Keep pushing vs abandon pushing? As far as I can tell, the vaccination rate in Jackson County hasn’t budged in at least a month (maybe two).

Speaking of two, that’s just about how many people out of 5 are vaccinated here. It shows in jumping case rates, hospitalizations, and canceled elective surgeries.

Maybe this will nudge the vaccination rate upwards.

Remember, Oregon couldn’t even pass a mandatory vaccination law for public schools, and Democrat Jeff Golden was one of the majority who opposed it.

Also, Oregon has the *only law in the country* exempting health care workers from mandatory vaccines.

Your public sector union campaign dollars at work.

Anonymous said...

Overheard in the coffeeshop...

"I guess we should retire the expression 'Avoid it like The Plague!", given the little effort some folks have put into avoiding an actual plague."

Dave Norris said...

A news article yesterday informed us that the most of the distributed vaccines have gone to the"rich" countries and that vaccines won't be available to third world nations until 2023. What monster variant(s) might brew and emerge from the poor to visit us in the future? Bob Warren may be more right than we would like to think. We each need to be kind, loving and gentle with each other. The end may be closer than you think.

Malcolm said...

Questions, Professor:

1. How many people wear masks that are even slightly efficient at filtering out covid virus aerosols? (diameter said to be 1/10,000th the thickness of a human hair!)

Not one of my pile of masks filters out anything finer than a monarch butterfly; if it did, I wouldn’t be cursing my masks for constantly fogging up my glasses!

2. If CDC is correct about us lucky vaccinated folks, and many (most? All?) of us having a certain amount of covid vaccine in our nasal passages, doesn’t that mean that determining the percent of the population being “covid positive” is not only meaningless, but a waste of scientists' time and money?

BTW, Ive long opposed helmet laws (for adults) for the reason you mentioned. It took near destruction of C6 and C7, back in 1965, to convince me i was not actually invulnerable. I still didn’t choose to wear a helmet; I chose to stay off motorcycles. I’ve been off that habit for 56 years. I still miss riding them, though, unlike cigarettes, which I don’t miss at all, after kicking THAT stupid habit in 1968.

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