-- It wasn't as bad as the media makes it out to be
-- The images we have seen aren't typical.
-- They weren't Trump supporters. They were Democrats in disguise
-- They weren't Trump supporters. They were Democrats in disguise
-- They were Trump supporters, but they were egged on by FBI agent-provocateurs.
— The lawbreakers in Portland we’re not prosecuted by the local DA so the Capitol lawbreakers should not be prosecuted by the federal Department of Justice.
I don't need a lawyer to tell me it is wrong, dangerous, and illegal to break into a public building by smashing windows and pushing past barricades. I know better than to fight with police officers in a traffic stop or any other time. I consider it axiomatic that a person who uses a flagpole to poke a police officer or who sprays them with bear spray is fair game for being killed on the spot. I think they are lucky to be alive.
The crimes they are charge with are part of laws written to prevent tampering with a witness or evidence, not for attempting a coup d' état. I assumed that it would be illegal to break into the Capitol, attack officers, and try to stop Congress from doing its work, but maybe the idea of doing it was so unthinkable that there isn't any law that applies to this event. I decided to read the law.
-- The investigation was partisan.
-- What they did wasn't illegal.
-- What they did wasn't illegal.
I followed the riot in real time on TV. I saw people break doors and windows and climb balconies to enter the Capitol against the efforts of police officers trying to stop them.
I don't need a lawyer to tell me it is wrong, dangerous, and illegal to break into a public building by smashing windows and pushing past barricades. I know better than to fight with police officers in a traffic stop or any other time. I consider it axiomatic that a person who uses a flagpole to poke a police officer or who sprays them with bear spray is fair game for being killed on the spot. I think they are lucky to be alive.
In the aftermath of the riot, people who can be proved to have done violent or destructive things are being identified and prosecuted.
Some of the January 6 defendants are claiming they weren't really guilty of a crime. They have brought a case to the Supreme Court.
The crimes they are charge with are part of laws written to prevent tampering with a witness or evidence, not for attempting a coup d' état. I assumed that it would be illegal to break into the Capitol, attack officers, and try to stop Congress from doing its work, but maybe the idea of doing it was so unthinkable that there isn't any law that applies to this event. I decided to read the law.
18 U.S. Code § 1512 - Tampering with a witness, victim, or an informant
(2)Whoever uses physical force or the threat of physical force against any person, or attempts to do so, with intent to—(A) influence, delay, or prevent the testimony of any person in an official proceeding; (B) cause or induce any person to—(i)withhold testimony, or withhold a record, document, or other object, from an official proceeding; (ii)alter, destroy, mutilate, or conceal an object with intent to impair the integrity or availability of the object for use in an official proceeding; (iii) evade legal process summoning that person to appear as a witness, or to produce a record, document, or other object, in an official proceeding; or (iv) be absent from an official proceeding to which that person has been summoned by legal process; or. . . .
It looks clear to me that the law is telling us that it is indeed illegal to use force or the threat of force to induce people to withhold electoral votes in an official proceeding of Congress. That's what the rioters did. They carried signs saying that was their intent. They were videotaped while doing it. Most pleaded guilty. The ones who went to trial were found guilty.
It looks to me like the government is enforcing the laws, which is what they should do.
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As your Republican friends make clear, insanity can be contagious. Be careful if you go to that pillow guy’s gathering of the whackos today. We’d hate for you to catch crazy.
ReplyDeleteThe conduct of the January 6 rioters was indeed wrong, dangerous and illegal. It just didn’t constitute an attempted coup d’etat. A few were convicted of seditious conspiracy. If not aggrandizing equals minimizing, so be it.
ReplyDeleteAsking for a friend: just what would it take for you to change your mind about what constitutes an "attempted Coup" ?
DeleteIf the miscreants had succeeded in murdering Mike Pence or Nancy Pelosi, would that constitute an attempted Coup ?
That the sentences handed out so far with one or two exceptions amount to nothing more than a light rap on the knuckles is an affront to those Officers who were wounded in their attempts at defending the Capitol, and a stain on the Judiciary letting those criminal walk free
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DeleteUnfortunately, much of our political discourse is treated as a sport. On one side or the other, they see a foul. Their reaction is often violent, and they use the pretense of "well, they do it too." or they swarm the field and assault the team members on the other side. Often Trumpers tell me the Clintons were criminals and Bill Clinton lied to the FBI, a felony. Each party wants to make them angry enough to turn up at the polls and either vote out or vote on one side or the other. However, January 6th was different; the action that day was a direct assault not only on the rule of law but also on our form of government. January 6th rioters are saying by their actions, we will decide who is the President, not you voter.
ReplyDeleteEvery one of those guys will be pardoned if Trump is elected. Steve Bannon, too. Anyone else?
ReplyDeleteThe judge in the Hush Money case has a real problem. He's supposed to hand out a sentence to Trump on the 11th. If he fines him, his supporters will pony up the money. That's a freebie. It's not bad enough to put him in jail. The only thing left is Community Service. Orange jumpsuit and all.
With friends like those...
ReplyDeleteLD -- The coup attempt wasn't just the insurrection Trump incited, but included such other illegal maneuvers as the fake elector conspiracy.
ReplyDeleteFor which attempts a bunch of people have been indicted in various Jurisdictions around the Country, interestingly enough, not a single Democrat among them.
DeleteFair enough--I suppose the grinning guy in Nancy Pelosi's office might have had notions to replace her as Speaker, or perhaps serve as Minister of Information in the new regime.
ReplyDeleteBut seriously, isn't a coup the overthrow--and replacement of--a government by force or threat of force? Legal "Hail Marys" ain't that, even if promoted by violent rioters.
Trump’s legal attempts were over once they were thrown out of court, but he repeatedly ordered the DOD, DOJ and DHS to illegally and forcibly intervene on his behalf. These orders were refused, but the agencies’ refusals to follow unlawful orders are the hallmarks of a failed coup — not proof that no coup was attempted.
ReplyDeleteHowever delusional, incompetent or doomed to failure it might have been, every action to keep the powers of the presidency in Trump’s hands past noon on Jan. 20, 2021, was part of an attempted coup.
Well said Mike. Adolph Hitlers Beer Hall Putsch was just a warmup for what came next, which led directly into the darkest period if the 20th Century.
DeleteAnd I in no way believe the Forces trying to tear this Country apart are going to give up because some of them got to spend a few months in Jail. And now Bannon is appealing his 4 month Sentence to SCOTUS after losing st the Appeals Court .
That all that fatuous maneuvering occurred months before Trump actually relinquished power just as scheduled means it was not an attempted coup, by definition. In my view. Had he bolted the doors and then called out the yahoos in the third week of January, then that’s an attempt. An attempted, specious legal coup, perhaps?
ReplyDeleteSounds like it wasn't violent enough to meet LD's definition of a coup attempt, but it certainly meets the dictionary definition. A coup d'etat is a sudden and decisive action in politics, especially one resulting in a change of government illegally or by force. That's exactly what Trump attempted. But rather than quibble over definitions, suffice it to say that he violated the constitution and his oath of office, and no sane society would allow him to run again.
ReplyDeleteAs I interpret Low's remark , it wasn't a Coup only because it failed, just like The Munich Beer Hall Putsch failed about a hundred years
ReplyDeleteago. Apparently, "Attempts don't count, even when people die or get maimed.
The timing and the purpose of the force applied is what I’m emphasizing. Attempted governmental overthrow? Nah.
ReplyDeleteThey were trying to disqualify tens of millions of voters.
Delete"Attempted governmental overthrow? Nah."
ReplyDeleteIt's understandable that Republicans would trivialize the depths of Trump's depravity rationalize remaining in his party, but I'd rather hear what the courts have to say about it.